Abbas:

Why are we here?

Mario:

Well, I don't know. Actually. I'm a podcast virgin. You know, I think people think that maybe we had a crystal ball, and I guess we do quite a lot in property, so we can look at property 360 degrees from a social housing point of view, from the investments we're doing in the UK and abroad.

And having been through a lot seen 2 or 3 recessions, we can get a good idea and get pretty good opinion on things like the budget and, you know, look at opportunities in the market.

Abbas:

So we start today's podcast with the hottest topic of the moment, the UK Autumn budget. And what I found in this budget is that the lead up was actually more interesting than the actual delivery. Last week there was a lot of talk and a lot of fear from landlords, entrepreneurs, high net worth individuals with fears of things like increases in income tax and exit taxes, which we'll come to talk about later on. However, the budget itself, in my opinion, was balanced on the basis of the deficit that the government has to cater for.

Mario:

So tax rises were unavoidable. However, I don't think they went as far as people had feared, which is ultimately positive for people. And I think that's the problem generally, the sentiment in the market. If you look at the market itself is pretty good, to be honest, especially if you're buying. But they put so much fear. People spent the whole year not actually doing anything, which again, goes back to the sentiment of people buying, and which is a shame really, because I think the UK market has got a lot of potential still.

One prime example was everyone was worried about the increase in tax, which is 2% listing rule. Who's it going to affect? 2%. You know, if you made a profit of 10,000 pounds, you can pay 200 pounds. So all that fear was for nothing. If you are a large landlord, of course 2% is going to affect you. But generally that wasn't, a big concern.

The concerns were around the National Insurance. If that would have come in for, or on your rental income, stamp duty and things like that. I think that would have caused a lot of problems. So really, all in all, not a lot happened in the in the budget, which kind of you can look at it two ways.

It could have been a lot worse. But at the same time, things that were really important, such as LHR, which was frozen. I think, you know, you see the disparity in the market and if they don't move and, freeze it like we're going to have a bigger problem is going to be more homelessness, people that can't afford accommodation.

So I think they should have done something on that side, that didn't incentivize the entrepreneurs. People that want to bring value to the UK market. Developers, you know, there was no benefits for first time buyers to go into the market. Any help around planning permission and things that will keep the market going again? So I think there's a lot more they could have done.

Abbas:

So to be honest, is a very safe budget, but didn't really do much. It was no growth initiative. It was just very stable. I think the budget did lack any stimulus packages. You mentioned help to buy other types of incentives that the governments have previously had in place that assisted individuals to acquire assets to get onto the property ladder.

It also helped developers because they understood that there was a market that was out there and able and ready to purchase properties. Now there is a lack of confidence with developers asking themselves, who's out there, who's got the ability to buy the properties, raise capital with zero incentives from the government. Visual has an impact on people's ability to buy and therefore the ability for developers to develop.

And ultimately, we do know that there is an overarching shortage of housing, both social and general needs housing in the UK market, and there's very little new still coming, which ultimately is only going to lead to difficulties for people wanting to buy property and, the housing sector and the real estate market as a whole.

Mario:

People are leaving the market because a lot of those gen we don't stack up. Landlords themselves are struggling, interest rates and what have you. The new renters, right. Bills coming in. Everything is making it more onerous on the landlords. Some regulations coming in. Can be challenging, I guess. And I guess companies like ourselves that offer guaranteed rents is, an opportunity for us to give that certainty. And that's where we're striving as a, as a business.

We're looking at landlords at the moment that are struggling, and that's where we add a lot of value to the situation. At the moment. We've got with evictions. So there's a lot of uncertainty. If you take taken on a tenant, what happens if things go wrong? Trying to evict the tenant today is even more challenging. The waiting time for a court case now could be up to one year, and you know you're holding that property for that time.

All the holding costs, you know, all the additional costs, and you're not able to pay your mortgage if you're not getting the rent. So you've got that coupled with these new lawyers have kind of appeared after the just prior to, to Covid, I would say, when there was, quite a surge in PPI, insurance claims and these lawyers that were able to get money back and that was abolished, I think, in 2019 or 2020.

Now, those same lawyers had nothing else to do, by the looks of it. So now doing a no win, no fee for tenants. And what does that mean? It means that there are pressure wise in tenants to say go to your landlord. And in many, many cases pressure your landlord because we can get compensation for you. And that's not taking away the genuine landlord that has problems or disrepair cases.

But it's created a massive problem for landlords where there's a lot of false claims going in. And again, just creating that challenge for landlords and worry about taking on properties, because tenants have got this power now and it's happening more and more. So just adds or Mary was saying, I think we covered some of this in our previous podcast where there is increasing difficulty for landlords, small landlords, individual landlords, and that's where Caridon can really help, where we can come in and de-risk someone's rental asset by providing that guaranteed rent and peace of mind that irrespective of occupancy, disrepair, rent collection, we manage all of that so the landlord doesn't need to worry.

Mario

And I think a lot of this is why, you know, every other, social media advert that comes up about Dubai at the moment, you know, that seems to be the silver bullet had enough for the UK. You know, it's raining. It's cold. Can't make any money here. Let's go to Dubai. And you know what? There's a lot of truth behind that.

Having been there, traveling there for the last 20, 30 years now, I've seen a massive shift and I can see the appetite to moving to Dubai. Oh, we still got the short straw on the bus. Made that move a few years ago. And it'll be interesting to see, you know, to get your take on living here with your life and taking your family out there.

Now from your kind of family point of view alongside the business. But you've got the best kind of view of how it's working for you.

Abbas:

So, yes, I mean, the total contrast to what we feel, in the UK with respect to the market, real estate investment, there is a lack of confidence, the lack of movement, the market seems quite slow and sluggish, whereas in Dubai it's the total opposite.

The market is very buoyant, there's great energy, very much a growth mindset from both the leadership and everyone that works in the sector. You know, there's many brokers, developers, real estate agents all flourishing out there. There is, of course, two sides to every story. And of course, Dubai has been in the media recently where big government agencies have been making claims of a correction, an oversupply in the market.

However, from my perspective, I actually living in the city and seeing and feeling the city on a day to day basis. It's such an amazing place to live that I can only see more and more people migrating for not only things like tax benefits, but the lifestyle, the safety and actually opportunity as well. And that's why people are really moving out there.

And as population grows, I think the demand on both, residential real estate, commercial real estate is only going to continue to boom over the long term. I think if you compare the UK, it is a very mature market. The real estate market in the UK is hundreds of years old, whereas in Dubai a mere 50 year old.

So it's by no means too late coming to the Dubai market. It's buzzing, it's buoyant, it has seen incredible growth over the last four, five years. And I think that does create some fear in people. When will the bubble burst? How long can this go on? But ultimately, if the fundamentals are strong, which I believe they are, there is a demand supply imbalance and more and more people have an ambition to move to Dubai.

And as long as people continue to move and enjoy the city, that will only snowball, creating more opportunity and more demand in the region.

Mario:

And I think, look, it boils down to energy, right? When you think about it, we're in a country, the sentiment is negative. The weather is negative, for God's sake. So if you're in a country where everyone's going near for a purpose, they want to make money, they want to better their lives, and they say, what's the energy going to be like?

And it doesn't take a genius to work out that if you've got that positive energy and on top of that, you've got a government really that wants to promote positive outcomes, help entrepreneurs, you know, it's a common sense that that country is going to grow. And that's unfortunate what we're lacking in the UK. But that being said, I think we've got to be careful because it's like anything wherever you invest, you have to have your wits about you and you don't want to get sold by a TikTok beautiful villa that you see because that woman has to make money.

You know, the UK's got to be right. You got to be buying in the right location. You can be mindful of a country that you're not sure all the legal ins and out, so to speak. There is an oversupply potential issue there. But if you're in the right location, with the growth coming in, I think you should be okay.

We're investing out there ourselves. I think there's a huge opportunity there. And when the worst comes, the worst. You've got a nice flat in the sun. Okay? There's good vibes.

Abbas:

Yeah. So Mario mentioned leadership. I want to just touch on that as well. Dubai has the most incredible leadership, with vision, determination. And a discipline to really move forward and grow the city.

There's always new announcements of new infrastructure, new malls, new facilities. There's always something new to look forward to. Of course, myself being there now, we have a gateway into that market. We had never invested in Dubai real estate earlier on in Caridon. However, now with more local knowledge, more local connections as a real estate developer and portfolio landlord, it was an obvious choice for us to divert some of our capital to invest in Dubai and, diversify our investments into a large growth region.

Mario:

And I think for us, obviously, look, UK is our base. We built our portfolio here, you know, we manage the 300 million pounds of assets. Of course, we were fortunate enough to be in a position to diversify a bit. So we've invested in, in Dubai because we have obviously partner local partners that work with us there.

We also investing in New York, on the outskirts in social housing, in Italy at the moment. So we kind of investing in areas where I suppose there's more opportunities in the UK. There seems to be more growth there. But obviously our bases here. So we know we know the model very, very well here, but still de-risk the investment, I guess.

Abbas:

And just to elaborate on that a little more, we recognize that over a period of time we should, like any investor or business, diversify our our investments and our income streams. And we have recently invested in a social housing portfolio in new Jersey. Pattison, which mirrors the Caridon ethos and Caridon business still delivery but in the USA we've also diversified into luxury real estate in Rome with Mario's connections and partners in Rome, we've been able to deliver beautiful historic, upgraded apartments in the centre of Rome, which again gives us a different flavour of what we can do.

And that, gives us exposure to a different market. And of course, Dubai of planned real estate, buying luxury villas, renovating and selling for capital appreciation both in the short, medium and long term are all parts of our global business plan. So while I've been sitting on the beach, Mario has been busy racking his brain to find out how we can integrate AI into and to improve efficiency and gain skill. Mario, tell us what you've been up to?

Mario:

Well, first sale was looking at the option of buying the Tesla robot to replace my wife, but that didn't go down well. So yeah, all of these robots are right there at the moment. But on a on a serious note, yeah, we spent a lot of time over the last three, four months.

It's really hard. Like I said then there's so many companies out there offering you real ones, and I expect all of a sudden just coming out of the woodwork, I think it's a 50, 50, percent of things that come through on social media. And a lot of it's nonsense to be honest with you and for us in our day to day business, we focus in where we can use AI to help speed up processes.

Look at opportunities where it's not about reducing our staff because, you know, I think it was going to need the human contact. But it's about how we can sell. So we believe with the same amount of people, we can scale the business five times with AI and with less human error. I would say, do you want to try and work with a consultant?

Do you want to try and work with an individual? And that's been one of the turning. So we spend a lot of time getting proposals from different companies to establish what we need. And I think what we've learned from that whole process is that the first thing we need to do is actually look inside and under the bonnet of our own business to see where the problems lie.

Once we've got that data, then we can put that information out and connect with the right companies who can potentially help you where you have the problem. A lot of companies want to sell you bespoke system that could work for your business, but it's very costly. You know, I can go into the hundreds of thousands and then there's companies out there that will look at specific AI that can integrate with your CRM and your software and what have you, which is probably the easiest route for us, because, you know, if you want to integrate accounts and finance, you know, for us now has benefit maintenance and things like that.

There's specific software that can help you to do that. So we've come to a point now where we've been doing a lot of the groundwork ourselves to try and ascertain what's going wrong in the business and what can be automated. And once we've got that data, I think we're going to go to the next phase of, employing, a consultant to try and assist us in that next move of really finding the right AI or software that can help integrate everything.

Abbas:

What kind of impact do you think this AI will have on the business as a whole and our workforce specifically?

Mario:

So I think that we'll definitely have more accurate information, to be able to have a pool to where all the data is in one area. So the idea is to create this hub so we're able to access everything about the business in one hub.

That's the plan. So you're going to have that efficiency that you don't have to go to each department to, to find and draw out information. Firstly, and I think because AI is constantly learning, whatever information you feed, it will constantly learn. So we have a lot of data, whether it's stored on archived PDF files and what have you.

And a lot of the data is either on paper or in people's heads, which is a problem, getting that knowledge. So the idea is, is to retrieve a lot of the data and had that knowledge. So when we've got that knowledge, literally anyone will be able to derive that information and make decisions where at the moment it's very long winded process.

So we have to speak to someone who has that knowledge in their head. And that's the issue. So yeah, in terms of efficiency, you streamline everything in the business. I think it will allow people to get away from all the mundane, tedious jobs that they're doing day to day. And the idea is to scale our business with the same amount of people.

And you can do that rather than having, you know, we've got 200 staff now. We will need 400 staff to scale the business. If you have the efficiency there, you can scale with the same amount of people, which is obviously productive for sure. And I think in implementing AI into the business is more than a physical change.

Abbas:

I think some mental change as well. People have to be on board and they have to understand the efficiencies that can come from it and not be fearful of it. Typically, people think once AI comes in, people won't have jobs. In Caridon we’re thinking about totally differently. Can we strengthen the business, make the time that our employees are in this office more efficient so we can achieve more and we can grow?

And I think it's a cultural thing and a mindset thing where we need to have AI as a tool that can assist us, and it should be seen as a positive. Sometimes it can be seen as a negative. For example, if I draft an email using AI, some people say, oh, he cheated, he used AI. But actually as a mindset, I'm small because I saved half an hour by not having to draft the email myself, but that's a mindset thing and hopefully we tune in people training individuals within the organization to embrace this change, not be fearful of it, and make the most of it because it will change our lives whether we want

it to or not. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of training is going to be needed. I think, to change the mindset of people in the business, especially the older generation. But, you know, I was watching seeing the other day that they stood up and said, the internet's going to take over. And people laughed. And I think if you compare, you know, 20 odd years ago when someone said, the internet's going to take over.

I think AI is going to have is going to be five, ten times faster. How it's going to impact the world compared to where the internet was. So I think we've got to definitely move quickly. And, you know, we don't want to be left behind basically.

Abbas:

So Mario, Christmas is coming. What we got planned.

Mario:

It's funny you say that because, we just took on a new maintenance guy, last week, and, I was saying Welcome to the business and hope you come into the Christmas party. He looked at me, you baffled. He said, Christmas party. I've never had a Christmas party anywhere I've ever worked before. So I think we're pretty lucky as a business that for the last, you know, two decades now, we've held Christmas party team, build all the events for our staff, which has been amazing.

So we've got a nice big party this year up in London, which is great. Alongside that, we're holding a 12 Days of Christmas where we do something different every day. You know, we've donated to, Purley Cancer Trust, chairs from Ikea. We do a lot of food hubs, a lot of volunteering for all our buildings, you know, 2000 properties that we own.

We hold parties for the kids because there's families, in many of the buildings. So we have a Christmas party with a staff dressed, dressed up as Santa to make them feel like a community, which is really, really good. Recently supported the Calder Foundation for Autistic Kids. Many sponsored, rides and what have you that I've done.

Christmas is a very important time for us because homelessness is at its peak. With the cold weather settling in, it's important that we do our best to try and help. We will say, you know, every penny we invest, quite a building will take on a property that's going to change someone's lives. We'll do our bit, and hopefully we will continue to do that in the new year.

Abbas:

So to wrap up 2025, I can say that Caridon has had once again a very exciting year, a year full of challenges. Oh, a year when we probably looked inwards and fixed problems, built infrastructure and explored new horizons as we go into 2026, were full of energy, full of excitement for what the new year will bring. You'll see more of the same coming from Caridon and continued growth, continue expansion and more exciting things. Over to Mario.

Mario:

Yeah, I think a lot of it is around trying to simplify what we do in the business. I think focusing on what actually works. We've got so many opportunities at the moment. I'm fortunate enough to open a number of children's homes offsets, registered. So we want to scale up our care side of the business from children's homes to the issues around bed blocking at the moment.

Step down services. So the whole care industry is something that we heavily investing into because we feel that we can add a lot of value there. We want to continue, obviously, to that mandate that we have of reducing homelessness. We've housed over 25,000 homeless people. And if we've got the opportunity to diversify in countries where allows us to continue that social impact, like in New York, even better, and have some fun, right?

And it's lovely to invest in Dubai and Italy to change it up a bit, because it's a is a tough life we have here. It's not easy, you know, dealing with quite a challenging sector. So doing something outwards and every now and then seeing a little bit of sun. Well for me anyway, really positive for the new year.

I just hope that the government in the new year looks, the same way and wants to drive and has that energy and that entrepreneurial kind of spirit that we need to get the country going again. Because the UK is a brilliant place. It's just unique, the people to be behind and the sentiment to follow.

Abbas:

If you're a landlord and you want us to cover your specific scenario on the show, please send us a message. We're going to be introducing a Q and A, and we'd like to hear the kind of things landlords, property owners, developers and everyone within the real estate sector want to hear about and want to talk about. We're here. We want to get engaged and see what you guys want to talk about next. Thanks, guys.

Mario:

I always believe in if you really want to learn and something or you want to understand something, go to people that have actually lived it.

So we've done it. We've lived it, breathed it, and we still continue to do that. So if you want to ask more questions, it could be anything from, you know, what's happening to the market. HMOs. We have been through that journey. So make sure you follow us on Inside Caridon on your Apple Podcasts or Spotify, YouTube, wherever you are.

And make sure you're listening, please.